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Post by karliecole on Feb 7, 2012 22:39:38 GMT -5
Also please note Dawn's comment about as she did the review of compliance and finances.
"Michael Pollok may be guilty of bad judgement and lack of self control but he did NOT misuse 99 Percent Declaration funds or do anything illegal."
I would also ask - how many of you would hold up under the onslaught of personal attacks without losing it on occasion?
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Post by karliecole on Feb 7, 2012 22:44:00 GMT -5
As far as financial transparency accusations - all income was posted on FB and the website via statements, all expenses were reported regularly and in many cases polled on FB.
As far as unilateral decision making accusations - many decisions were also polled on FB. Some people wanted consensus - decisions were done by majority.
As far as censorship accusations - some moderation is of course required, nevertheless if any personal attacks or other were deleted the accusations of censorship flowed for days - rippling out in to the far reaches of cyberspace.
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Post by karliecole on Feb 8, 2012 1:13:08 GMT -5
"Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth." -Mohandas Gandhi
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Post by hendrimike on Feb 8, 2012 8:27:56 GMT -5
I'm glad the finance stuff came back clean. I thought it would, so that was nice to see everything in order to move on with.
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Post by amadeus on Feb 8, 2012 14:06:00 GMT -5
I see Karlie's statements are now weakening, and it didn't take long to accomplish. First, it was a statement of the existence of financial transparency which was totally untrue.
Now, that statement has been revised to, "all income was posted on FB and the website via statements, all expenses were reported regularly", which still isn't true. Checks arriving by snail mail didn't show up on any of the Paypal statements that I saw, and I have never been aware of how much money was on the books. Paypal statements on a daily basis are useless as any method of maintaining financial transparency. I guess you can declare it though, as long as you don't mind being called a liar on a daily basis. There are many ways to keep the books in an organization, and the past oligarchy chose to use none of them.
Whenever a supporting member that has donated both his time and money posts something that is not squeaky clean to a page, and expects TO HAVE THAT GRIEVANCE REDRESSED, it is not leadership that deletes those words--it is ignorance. You now sit up on your throne and complain that the ripple effect of your censorship ACTS, not accusations, went on for days, even after you, Karlie Cole, and Michael Pollack were repeatedly warned of what would happen if it persisted. Now that day is upon you, and you still see no error in your ways. I pity you . . .
There is a lesson here to be learned for all of us. Within our own group we see what it takes to defeat those that have the power, and it will not be any easier from this point forward. Prepare yourselves mentally for the long haul, and be willing to change your social consciousness to ensure that it never happens again. Political awareness should never have been allowed to wander away from our lives, and now that it is back, it should be here to stay for the rest of our days. Teach your children well. Let them share in this venture, so that when their turn comes, they can carry the torch for us when we are too old to do so anymore.
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Post by karliecole on Feb 8, 2012 14:16:37 GMT -5
Amadeus - are you ignorant of the requirements and standard practices of non-profits? In most cases, when asked about finances you would simply be pointed to the most recent annual or quarterly statement. Reporting requirements do not require the level of information that has been provided. That is above and beyond both legal requirements as well as what even OWS provides.
Good ahead pity me. I am sad that it is a waste of time to attempt anything really since those who say they support it only simultaneously tear it down over so little.
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Post by peedropaula on Feb 8, 2012 14:32:15 GMT -5
Legal requirements and moral/ethical requirements aren't necessarily the same thing. It was wrong for Michael to claim to represent the 99% while excluding members and committee chairs from major decisions and dismissing both the desires and the decisions of the Board of Directors.
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Post by amadeus on Feb 8, 2012 15:15:20 GMT -5
That's why I pity you. You fail to see that you are the 'it', and not the group.
I am fully aware of the legal requirements under NY law, and I am also aware of how many requests were made for financial transparency.
The fact that neither you, nor your leader could fathom the question should have been the same clue to you, as it was to the rest of us. It's not that we thought that there was any hanky-panky going on with the funds, mind you. It was the fact that we who put it there in the first place couldn't see how much had accumulated.
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Post by nanettejw on Feb 8, 2012 15:36:39 GMT -5
First let me say - I by no means want to get into this argument - what I do want to state is that there is a HUGE difference between being NOT-FOR-PROFT and a NON-PROFIT. The 99% Declaration or better yet the corporation it was functioning under, The 99% Working Group Ltd. is a NOT-FOR-PROFIT.
The difference is a NOT-FOR-PROFIT does not have to pay tax on the money donated but the donor does not get a tax deduction. A NON-PROFIT - the donor gets to write off on their taxes the amount of money they donate.
Either way - it is always good business practice to manage finances in an accountable manner. There are many inexpensive software packages that can be applied - QuickBooks comes to mind.
Were this a NON-PROFIT - by Federal laws through the IRS - a Non-profit is accountable to show financial accountability upon request by ANYONE that requests to see it. Again, a Federal mandate not a state by state regulation.
So if the 99%D was truly a NON-PROFIT people would have been within their rights to have the financial accountability provided to them upon request.
Given this is NOT a NON-PROFIT and a not-for-profit under the laws of the State of New York - I am not familiar with the financial accountability upon someone requesting to see information. That said, I do believe again, when a corporation is taking people's money they should have some accountability to those people as to the use of that money.
The fact that several of the arguments on FB were a result of people asking about the "money" - it would have been prudent for the corporation to have employed a simple accounting system - even an Excel spreadsheet would have been better then posting paypal receipts which, 1. were usually unreadable and 2. Did not display checks/cash received or 3. The disbursement of funds to/for/what.
Were there even the simplest form of financial transparency or accountability, as people had asked for (whether by law or not being required to show) it would have proven good-will amongst the volunteers and donors of funds. Instead, people's questions were responded to with "trust me" statements and when those went untrusted - then the accusations began to fly - and in some cases threats of legal actions against those asking for financial transparency because said owner/leader felt threatened.
I believe that Lisa Longo will do a great job of clearing up any and all concerns about the financial accountability of the 99%D - and people ought to with hold their negative comments about this issue. I doubt once she has had a chance to get her arms around the finances all this discussion will go away.
Now before you start calling me names and telling me I don't know what I'm talking about - I have established 4 NON-PROFITS (for various reasons) over the past 10 years. I have served as Executive Director of several NON-PROFITS so I am well aware of the Federal Laws required.
The conversation above should be mute because: 1. the 99%D is NOT A NON-PROFIT it is a Not-for-profit 2. Had there been legitimate financial transparency I doubt any of this mess would have evolved to this level 3. Within a reasonable amount of time the finances will be on track in an accounting system that will provide checks and balances = money in = money out and what for.
To make statements like, '...are you ignorant of the requirements and standard practices of non-profits?" Only shows the person making that statements ignorance. So, really people unless you know what your speaking about when it comes to certain legal definitions name calling serves no purpose. However, I recognize that for some name calling is their only form of communication. Which is sad. It prevents true discussions and is merely a deflective mechanism of the truth.
As for money - my father use to tell me, "There is nothing funny about money especially when it is your money." To this people had a right to know where their money was going to and for what purpose. Especially in these tough economic times - even the smallest of donations should have been received with gratitude and respect for all involved - because without the money being donated - this effort could maintain the very high standards it strives to achieve.
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Post by amadeus on Feb 8, 2012 16:57:40 GMT -5
Yeah, what she said!
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Post by kforthun on Feb 8, 2012 22:36:44 GMT -5
Hi Sandymiracle, I will take a go at it A) Former members are coming back now. B) New board members where hired as volunteers. They came through the site interested in contributing their time and effort. Most of us know the board members and they are friends. Ask your old members who are afraid to come back if they know the new board, they will probably tell you yes. Some of the board are members who have come back with the recognition of MP stepping down. Hopefully the bylaw's will be public soon, if not I'm sure there will be a way to request them. If you would make some friends here you would already know all of these things. Wait for the minutes I guess. Everyone else has the same questions but we are all here together working on things and encouraging each other. Oh, and watching out for each other I hope, eventually, you get enough answers to make you feel comfortable working with us! Just watch for the minutes.
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Post by kforthun on Feb 8, 2012 23:34:12 GMT -5
Sandymiracle, you need to be the chair of the 99% Declaration Research Committee!
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Post by The 99 Declaration on Feb 8, 2012 23:41:28 GMT -5
I'll second that nomination kforthun!
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Post by peneloperose on Feb 9, 2012 1:53:49 GMT -5
First let me say - I by no means want to get into this argument - what I do want to state is that there is a HUGE difference between being NOT-FOR-PROFT and a NON-PROFIT. The 99% Declaration or better yet the corporation it was functioning under, The 99% Working Group Ltd. is a NOT-FOR-PROFIT. The difference is a NOT-FOR-PROFIT does not have to pay tax on the money donated but the donor does not get a tax deduction. A NON-PROFIT - the donor gets to write off on their taxes the amount of money they donate. Either way - it is always good business practice to manage finances in an accountable manner. There are many inexpensive software packages that can be applied - QuickBooks comes to mind. Were this a NON-PROFIT - by Federal laws through the IRS - a Non-profit is accountable to show financial accountability upon request by ANYONE that requests to see it. Again, a Federal mandate not a state by state regulation. So if the 99%D was truly a NON-PROFIT people would have been within their rights to have the financial accountability provided to them upon request. Given this is NOT a NON-PROFIT and a not-for-profit under the laws of the State of New York - I am not familiar with the financial accountability upon someone requesting to see information. That said, I do believe again, when a corporation is taking people's money they should have some accountability to those people as to the use of that money. The fact that several of the arguments on FB were a result of people asking about the "money" - it would have been prudent for the corporation to have employed a simple accounting system - even an Excel spreadsheet would have been better then posting paypal receipts which, 1. were usually unreadable and 2. Did not display checks/cash received or 3. The disbursement of funds to/for/what. Were there even the simplest form of financial transparency or accountability, as people had asked for (whether by law or not being required to show) it would have proven good-will amongst the volunteers and donors of funds. Instead, people's questions were responded to with "trust me" statements and when those went untrusted - then the accusations began to fly - and in some cases threats of legal actions against those asking for financial transparency because said owner/leader felt threatened. I believe that Lisa Longo will do a great job of clearing up any and all concerns about the financial accountability of the 99%D - and people ought to with hold their negative comments about this issue. I doubt once she has had a chance to get her arms around the finances all this discussion will go away. Now before you start calling me names and telling me I don't know what I'm talking about - I have established 4 NON-PROFITS (for various reasons) over the past 10 years. I have served as Executive Director of several NON-PROFITS so I am well aware of the Federal Laws required. The conversation above should be mute because: 1. the 99%D is NOT A NON-PROFIT it is a Not-for-profit 2. Had there been legitimate financial transparency I doubt any of this mess would have evolved to this level 3. Within a reasonable amount of time the finances will be on track in an accounting system that will provide checks and balances = money in = money out and what for. To make statements like, '...are you ignorant of the requirements and standard practices of non-profits?" Only shows the person making that statements ignorance. So, really people unless you know what your speaking about when it comes to certain legal definitions name calling serves no purpose. However, I recognize that for some name calling is their only form of communication. Which is sad. It prevents true discussions and is merely a deflective mechanism of the truth. As for money - my father use to tell me, "There is nothing funny about money especially when it is your money." To this people had a right to know where their money was going to and for what purpose. Especially in these tough economic times - even the smallest of donations should have been received with gratitude and respect for all involved - because without the money being donated - this effort could maintain the very high standards it strives to achieve. Thanks Nanette for clarifying things. We are working to get all of the paperwork and financial records into one location, where they will again be reviewed. What was reviewed, was found to be in compliance with corporate law of NYS. Records are still coming in, and the Board has, at just this past Monday's meeting, created an Oversight Committee. There have been bylaws passed as well. As has been said, we are volunteers, and even though we have jobs, kids and other personal responsibilities, we are all putting in many hours to make the transition to a group that works well together, to get the job done. There are many great people involved already, and many more will be needed, so please understand, that we cannot twitch our noses and accomplish in half an hour what needs to be done. We are moving as quickly as possible, and will have information posted on the website as quickly as we are able. Stick around and volunteer. Nan, can you please get in touch with me... Penelope Seitler Board Member
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Post by karliecole on Feb 9, 2012 2:24:46 GMT -5
I don't know how people can keep saying that no financials were posted. They are there in the feeds on FB (though the friends page is now gone thanks to some people reporting repeatedly to FB). If you scroll through the feeds on the FB like page and the FB group page - you will see them. Here is one example of the kind of posts that were made every few days in fact: www.facebook.com/groups/the99declaration/doc/225133000897417/The PayPal statements were posted regularly and one was just posted showing through the end of January and then MP posted that no donations had come in the early part of February. The thermometer was up on the website and posted on FB through the donor match and was updated regularly. There is a new thermometer running. Last I looked today it said $101 had come in. In most non-profits or not-for-profits - doesn't really matter on this point - if you request a statement of the finances you will receive an annual statement or if you are real lucky a quarterly statement. You have been instead receiving updates every few days and still complain. Seems people would not be happy unless they had the account numbers and passwords themselves at this rate. It's true that custom by-laws and full CPA style accounting system were not in place. However, the 99D is just over 3 months old! Not even the state of NY expects all that in the first 3 months and so provides for boiler-plate by-laws. The 99D met all financial reporting requirements according to NY state law. This is grassroots for goodness sakes and people have been building it as fast as possible and doing their best. There have been many individual donations but that was largely presented to the public on FB and the website via the PayPal statements. There have been few expenses paid out of those funds as of yet and those too have been posted on FB. But a few checks does not likely need a full accounting system. The obsession over this truly escapes me and I cannot see the reason for the unreasonably high expectations. The donor "representative" who demanded the CPA involvement as a condition of the donation was on the board up until threatening to not give the promised match donation based on their demands. I wonder why, if they were so worried about, they didn't, as a board member, just use QuickBooks and get it done?
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